Suda Chikamitsu apparently does not exist. See the Talk for Suda Mitsuchika. (Where did Chikamitsu come from anyway?)
The Japanese and Gregorian dates for 1615 do not match, so I revised it using the the Japanese dates. Which are right (5/7 is correct, I know). Is this another one for the Turnbull thread?
Kitsuno, why did you say this incorporates text from the SBD? I did not use SBD when I wrote the original article, and I don't see that Obenjo used it either.--Bethetsu 06:03, 2 October 2007 (PDT)
I used the Suda Chikamitsu reference from your original article. I didn't bother to double check the accuracy of this point as it also appeared in the SBD.
Converting dates is not one of my strongest points, but something smelled fishy about Turnbull's conversion methodology that he stated at the beginning of his book. Therefore, I went back and checked all dates using Japanese sources and put them in the article, next to the Turnbull-given dates. I meant to put this issue here in the talk page but forgot! Thanks for bringing this up, Bethetsu!
Regarding use of SBD text, I didn't use anything directly from it intentionally although there is similar wording about "collapsed onto his campstool" vs "collapsed on a camp stool".--Obenjo Kusanosuke 15:28, 2 October 2007 (PDT)
My article said "Suda Mitsuchika," not "Chikamitsu" (I had a photo of the letter in front of me). You used both names. I don't think that the latter existed, so that is why I edited out the reference to him.
What is Turnbull's conversion method, anyway? Didn't he use a book of tables? If the book was written in 2006 he should also have been able to use the Nengo Calc or something else even if he he does not know how many days are in the Western months or cannot count on his fingers and so cannot use the tables.
I am glad you checked the Japanese dates. I probably would have converted to Japanese dates using his dates, and that would really have been a mess!
But now, I hope Yukimura fans will be happy. --Bethetsu 17:54, 2 October 2007 (PDT)
Turnbull and Dates
Bethetsu- I decided to take today off from work, so what better way to chase the beginnings of a cold a way by uncovering more Turnbullian issues?
Well, here is what he writes about dates, and I am quoting this verbatim from his Osprey Osaka book: "Dates have been converted from the lunar calendar to the Gregorian calendar using Bramsen's Japanese Chronological Tables. As England had not adopted the Gregorian calendar by the early 17th century, the dates appearing on letters of the East India Company have been modified accordingly by adding ten days."
Could it be that he has gone off the dates from Richard Cocks' letters and journal entries? Oh oh. Again, something about his dates struck me as odd and that is why I listed the Japanese dates from Rekishi Gunzo's books next to what Turnbull used. Here's the question: Should we edit the article reconverting the Gregorian dates based on the lunar dates or just leave the Japanese lunar dates and delete what Turnbull used?--Obenjo Kusanosuke 19:56, 2 October 2007 (PDT)
EDIT- Ahh, I see you went back into the article and changed the dates! Thanks! Just one thing though-from a stylistic point of view, writing dates as the "seventh day of the fifth month" is kind of awkward. It triggers a recording of Orson Welles in my brain's audio files doing the narrative voice over for Clavell's Shogun mini series. Could we just say "May 7"? I mean it is great to have old Orson do the reading of the article in my head and all, but...--Obenjo Kusanosuke 20:34, 2 October 2007 (PDT)
I think I can make some good sense out of his quote. He wants to put all dates in Gregorian. So when he had a Japanese date he used Bramsen to convert, and when he wrote something based on Cocks he converted by adding ten days. That seems to be fine.
In the 1615 dates (the 1614 dates are OK), though, I doubt that he got battle dates from Cocks, especially seeing that he is just 1 day off. Of course Bramsen, whom I have never heard of, may have made a mistake that year, but the problem may be Turnbull. Of course it could be me, but I used both the Nengo Calc and good tables, and I was being careful.
The Wiki policy is to use Japanese dates in general and Western if there is a reason. So the Japanese dates are necessary and the Western are optional here. I myself don't see any necessity for Western dates, though maybe you could leave it (in parentheses) for the battle of Tennoji.
PS.I see you have added material. If you look at the articles, in general month names are reserved for Western dates, so "May 7" out. Normally 5/7 is used (see example in first paragraph). I used the long form because I wanted to change the style as little as possible. But if you delete the western dates all-together, then 5/7, 12/9, etc. would probably be fine. --Bethetsu 21:04, 2 October 2007 (PDT)
Let's leave the dates as you edited them and to let Orson continue narrating... :D --Obenjo Kusanosuke 22:25, 2 October 2007 (PDT)
The article is pretty heavy on the sieges - fine for the moment, but I think the bulk of it should be put into osaka campaign articles, or create a "Osaka Campaign" article for it, and thin this one out a bit, there is a lot of info here, more than necessary for the Sanada article, but great info for an osaka campaign article. I think it should be done like the "Boshin War" article - one large general article, and then articles for specific battles and sieges. --Kitsuno 04:16, 3 October 2007 (PDT)
That's exactly what I intend to do... I was on a role with the Osaka siege details that relate to Sanada Yukimura and just wanted to get the details down pat. To do the complete Siege of Osaka article, I intend to borrow heavily from the Sanada article and thin it out in the process. I still have some considerable holes to fill regarding the summer siege i.e. Battle of Yao, Sakai, what happened after Yukimura dies, etc. I'll probably get to use some of those Osaka castle pics that I uploaded on the SA Wiki a while back. I may try to get around to doing the article over the weekend if the weather is bad. As it is a three-day holiday in Japan, I've got my fingers crossed for good weather. It was not so nice last weekend here in Tokyo. I want to get outside! Also, Kitsuno-- do you have one of those huge Sengoku dictionaries in Japanese? If so, would you kindly consider doing some articles on the folks in the Sanada article who have links but no articles? My original Yukimura article had all the kanji for their names-- and I noticed you put that to good use on some of the other bios. :) --Obenjo Kusanosuke 22:28, 3 October 2007 (PDT)
- I can, but I'm still moving over bios from the SBD first. So I've had to prioritize. --Kitsuno 00:03, 4 October 2007 (PDT)
Some edits seem to imply things the original documents did not say, so I changed them.
About Fushimi, the order says they were to send 1680 men to help with the construction, but unless there is some other document, that does not sound like they "played leading roles."
Ieyasu's letter does not say anything about "once the Western coalition was successfully defeated," so I tried to remove the phrase from the scope of "told Nobuyuki."--Bethetsu 02:11, 5 October 2007 (PDT)
Ok- no objections.--Obenjo Kusanosuke 18:00, 5 October 2007 (PDT)